If She Has Sex, Gets Pregnant, Asks Jesus For Her Sexual Purity Back, Then Has The Baby, IS It A Virgin Birth?!

Twitter sucks for conversations.  Even though that’s what it’s supposed to be about.
So I bring this tweet over here…

Screen shot 2009-11-23 at 2.44.46 PM
Here are my non seminary educated thoughts on Born Again Virginity.

1. God will make you a new creation…but to the dude or chick who you played doctor with, their creation isn’t new anymore. Therefore your virginity isn’t new again. So maybe we are a new creation with the same beat down body…Until heaven.
2. Isaiah 1:18 – “though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow, though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool”
Your sins are forgiven. Yes. But You Are not A Virgin. You are a forgiven…whatever…But you still are a…whatever…

What are your thoughts on this?
I think there should be better ways to claim purity as a evangelical community…
How about “I’ve decided to stop having sex with anything that makes me feel warm and fuzzy!”?
I think that works a lot better than “I’m a VIRGIN AGAIN!!!”
I know it’s not as catchy…
But it’s a heck of a lot less confusing.

Theological black hole just opened…
Los

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Author loswhit

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  • I just re-watched “Saved!”

    Rather than jump into the fray, I recommend that film with all its obscuring of the lines, harbingering of the grey and pushing grace to disquieting limits.

    We’re only “whatever” once, but grace has to be real enough for “whatever,” because the consequences most certainly are.

  • I like what you said at the end of point one:
    “So maybe we are a new creation with the same beat down body…Until heaven.”
    Exactly right. If we move away from who we were before God made us knew then we are (in my mind) playing the card of not using the brokenness of man to rely the greatest gift of all, grace. (i hope that made sense).

    I guess, if we deny the past we never really learn from the past.

  • There are people who think God makes them a virgin again?
    wow, and i thought my brethren background had some messed up ideas………..

    • I was thinking the same thing Ally…maybe this particular bit of interesting theology has yet to leave the US…because I’d not heard it down here in Australia either.

      Maybe I’m just sheltered…

  • Your tweet made me laugh.

    But as I read this, I thought, “What does it matter?”. Being a “virgin” doesn’t mean you are not a sinner. Being a “virgin” doesn’t mean you are holier than the “non-virgin”.

    And I ain’t saying that being a virgin on your wedding isn’t an admirable feat.

  • Jay

    I responded when you first wrote it with a blog post.

    http://justlivingthelife.com/2009/11/18/newness-of-life/

    I think we both agree that this is not a conversation that can take place with tweets of 140 characters or less.

  • I’m not sure where this idea came from, I’d be willing to bet that it’s only gained ground in the last few decades though.

    But it’s absurd. Biblically, logically, theologically, anything-ly.

    I’ve had friends who have claimed this sort of thing in the past….mind boggling.

  • i second what Cody said.

    also, LOVE the redesign. stick with this for a while – it’s great!

  • it’s biblical…what u sow, u reap. u sin sexually…u lose ur virginity. plain & simple. i’m a single mom. child born out of wedlock…i KNOW im not a virgin & i don’t like it when people say “2nd virginity”..there are consequences to sexual sins & one of them is LOSING virginity & we must accept that. it’s something that you CANNOT get back. i know it was wrong to do what i did before…and I’ve made the choice to remain celibate until i get married & THANK GOD for His grace for that…but that doesn’t erase the repercussions of my poor choices from my past.

  • Seems to me like you would then need to find a biblical loophole to not be considered a liar. Just saying.

    I understand the concept, and the forgiveness and healing they are trying to work through but if it looks like a duck, sounds like a… you get the idea.

    So I agree with you, unfortunately there is no getting that back, call this renewal something else.

    Not trying to be a jerk or overly harsh but the political correctness needs to stop.

    • dean

      i think you’d call this renewal “redeemed.” when i was a youth minister in the early days of True Love Waits i bought into the whole 2nd virginity thing. i was naive… actually ignorant is a better word.

      if someone contracts an STD and later repents of the lifestyle that caused it, they can’t go back and say “i’ve never had an STD.”

      as many have already stated, while the spiritual can be renewed, there are physical consequences to sin, and those don’t go away…

  • sin has real life consequences.
    God’s grace and forgiveness doesn’t remove those real life consequences,
    he redeems your heart, in my opinion.
    the new creation thing, is like a refreshing, a renewing. It doesn’t erase your sin. It rescues you from the eternal consequences…
    i think.

  • AUGH!!!! people who do the whole “re-virgin” think PISS ME OFF!! i don’t get mad easily, but this is one of those things just makes me totally indignant!! i am almost 23 and have managed to not let a guy in my pants. it’s tough but i have done it. my virginty is a special gift i’m saving for my husband. for someone who has screwed up and not cared for the value of that gift to say theyre “re-virginized” is an insult to me.it says that your feeling sorry for giving it up is equal to my 2 decades of self control. yes, you can be forgiven but that doesnt make you sexually pure again. that devalues the fact that those of us who stay virgins til marriage are actually pure.

    • Ashley

      No need to get so worked up about this. Your pride is just as sinful as someones “screw up”. You can’t just say someone doesn’t care about the gift that God has given them. Things happen and people make mistakes. But I believe you’re totally out of line when you look down on these people without any thought to as what their background is or where they have been.

      • Art

        Are you serious? Who cares about their “background” or “where they have been.” You have sex – you are not a virgin. Not spiritually. Not physically. Not anyway. Period.

        Now, that doesn’t make you a person beyond redemption and grace. Obviously fornication is no greater sin than any other. However, I think a 23 year old who has, in our sex obsessed culture, been able to withstand the temptation and pressure of pre-marital sex should be very proud of that, and at the same time very humble for the grace that has enable him or her to do it.

        Our church culture today looks down at folks who don’t have a testimony of sin after sin after sin after sin and then salvation. I say we should applaud and hold up as an example those whose testimony is “by the grace of God I stayed pure and didn’t give in to the temptations of the world.”

      • ::high five:: thanks Ashley.

    • James

      I don’t like the way you worded your post at all. You are not better than someone who has had sex before marriage. You sound proud of the fact that you’re a virgin and you refer to yourself as someone who is “actually pure”.
      People who have had sex and have decided to quit can be pure as well. Try to show some grace.

      • I know Elise personally, and she is not being prideful. Just so you know.

      • Erica

        Thank you, Ashley and James. I lost my virginity at 16, before I came to Christ, before anyone had shared with me about His love for me and what He did for me. but I also continued to have sex after I came to Christ. I regret it to this day. And have struggled to heal from the shame I felt/feel about it. But I believe what I have been thru in my life is a HUGE testimony to others about God’s grace and his mercy for me and others like me (or others not like me). I do not claim to be a virgin again, but we don’t have a right to judge others- whether they are virgins, not virgins, or whatever that person claims.

        God bless you Elise for remaining pure physically all this time. That is an amazing thing to be able to say. At the same time, God loves me as much as He loves you. I made a choice and there are consequences to that choice. But God forgives and removes my sin as far as the East is from the West.

    • Erica

      Elise-

      I would like to say I’m sorry for my prior response. I, too, was raped. But I can’t imagine the horror of your first sexual experience being when you were raped. You are a strong person for remaining sexually pure after that happened. After I was raped, I went into a tail spin of sexual promiscuity. Even tho when I was raped I was not a virgin, however like the article you posted said, I tried to deny the importance of sex and tried to find love thru sex. Thank you for sharing your story and that article. We really cannot get even a glimpse of an understanding until we know why someone feels the way they do about a certain issue. I really hadn’t examined what I felt about the term “born again virgin” until this post and it’s still something I’m chewing on.
      No your virginity cannot be restored. Someone can make the decision to go back to abstinence after a time of sexual impurity.
      That said, thank you for sharing your blog post and your perspective on the situation. I also encourage you to examine other perspectives from your own. It is very enlightening. God bless you.

    • I hear you. Thanks for sharing!!

  • Forgiveness is one thing – but you can’t un-experience something.

    Grace does not remove the earthly consequences of your actions.

    Sounds like some sort of new-age idea to help you feel better about yourself.

  • I wonder if the clever 😉 persons who came up with the idea of 2nd virgin, recycled virgin, etc…if their intention was to help reduce the guilt and damage in people’s minds. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be ashamed of their sin, what I am saying is I see alot of people walking around beating themselves up believing the lies that they are worthless and unforgivable etc. (who have returned to Christ and are walking with Him), even after they recognize they are forgiven and their sexual sins still carry a lot of weight, guilt and shame.

    I wonder if we should be asking how to encourage those who have messed up and help them accept the grace and forgiveness of Christ and move forward…?

  • It makes about as much sense as me telling my wife I didn’t’t have an affair because I gave my life to Christ after the fact.

    It doesn’t mean I am not and adulterer. It meas simply that I am a forgiven adulterer.

    Broken is broken. Pretending we are anything but just prolongs the fixing process.

  • While I find it hard to believe that there are many people out there who actually think they become virgins as a result of forgiveness of sin, I suppose there must be some since this conversation continues to have legs. I toyed with engaging when it first came up: Not because I have much to say about young lovers who choose to go to far and hope to be redeemed after the deed is done, but because the conversation made me think about another group of people – those who fall into the unfortunate category of having lost their virginity to rape or molestation. I would hate for this conversation to reinforce the already difficult notion that many of these women (and sometimes men) face when attempting to move beyond their tragedy. Let’s not forget as we discuss the question of redemption that losing one’s virginity is not always a choice.

  • virginity is as much physical as it is spiritual. as spiritual as it is emotional. as emotional as it is mental. by nature, when a person has sex, they’ve broken their body for another person. at least, that is how it is for a woman. sure, you can pray for restoration spiritually, but your body is not healed. calling oneself a virgin or re-virginized is like saying, “I got my tonsils back” because you prayed for them.

    we have to create a culture focused on purity. restoring men and women emotionally, mentally and spiritually—not hung up on the physical and how a person feels about losing their virginity.

    what’s done is done, it is what you do now that matters.

  • Crystal reminded me of something I heard once:

    Purity is a choice. Virginity can be taken away. – Kim Battle-Walters

  • No.

    • Perhaps I should expound on this.

      I worked in porn. I have seen and been a part of more sex than everybody here put together.

      I have only been saved for about a couple of years.

      My God, being infinitely merciful, has erased my memory of all past sexual memories. Like, don’t ask me if a certain Rated R movie before 2007 was any good. I would more likely say, “Oh yea, that is awesome. There is cussing and drug use but that is it.” Then they go watch it and it has a full blown out sex scene in it.

      So mentally, am I a virgin? I would say so.

      Physically? There is no way. But that is more than okay. Because of the cross of Christ, I am no longer a pervert.

  • This is like Nicodemus’ conversation with Jesus in John 3. Vs 4 – “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”
    Jesus answer – he can’t. In vs. 6, Jesus responds – “the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.”

    Seems like the same thing here.

    The renewal is about God’s judgment, not our physical state.

  • I fully believe god can restore our broken pasts into a new redemptive story. He can renew our minds, remove our guilt, even heal disease or broken hearts from sexual immorality. But, no He does not reinstate your virgiinity. Instead, God will use that sin for His glory, if you let Him. I don’t like the idea of “second virginity” but it is absolutely never too late to recommit to a life of abstinence till marriage and God will be faithful to that decision. God won’t just wipe away your past with one big swoop and say “you no longer have to deal with the consequences of your sin.” That’s just not how it works. Those decisions of our past will mold the way we view life, view God, and ultimately relate to others. I know this well as I am a once permiscious party girl turned Christian and now working for an organization that teaches teens about the importance of abstinence till marriage. God is USING my messed up past. He is USING my non-viriginity for His truth, and my passion for this ministry would just not be the same without the story it was born from. No, I am not a virgin. No, recommiting to abstinence does not give me the right to hide my past, lie to my future husband, or be free from the relational strain my past decisions will cause, but it does empower me to use my past to re-write my future in Christ. The term is not what matters, and it never should. What matters is the work of Christ in our hearts. And praise be to God for that.

  • Jay

    A lot of you are focusing on the action. The physical. Totally ignoring the spiritual.

    Yes, nobody can physically become a virgin again so anybody that has sex at some point and then accepts Jesus as their Savior and then on their wedding night claims to be a virgin, is a liar.

    But giving our lives to Christ is more about just forgiveness of sin. It is more than just God’s grace. It is more about any consequences.

    It is about God seeing us as a wholly new creation. Where does everybody think the term “born again” comes from? The moment we open our hearts to Jesus Christ. The moment we take the step across the line of faith we are a “new creation” just as Paul said 2 Corinthians 5:17.

    This is important, particularly when we are trying to reach the hopeless, the lost and the broken. As I said in my blog entry, I had just been part of a group that went through ‘The Search For Significance.’ It’s extremely easy for people to believe their significance is based upon things they do, or what other people believe about them and that is a lie. People need more than to be told they’ll be forgiven for what they’ve done. They need to hear that they are significant in God’s eyes and when they choose to believe and accept, God sees them as a totally new person (Romans 6:4)

    That’s not “feel good” new age, hippy stuff. That’s BIBLICAL stuff.

    • bethany

      this is my favorite response. i could not have said it better myself. also one thing im noticing is no ones mentioned their outrage or how hypocritical it is for many christian boys and girls to claim virginity bc they have not taken part in penetration. and yes there are people out there that claim virginity that have done many things their parents would not be ok with. also just throwing this out there. if an alcoholic who has liver damage becomes a non alcoholic to we still have to call them an alcoholic because they carry the scars of an alcoholic? no they are a former alcoholic. still has the tell tale signs of a an evil past we like to post on people but lets u know they are no longer taking part in that ugliness. so i say keep the title 2nd virginity. it lets u know they made mistakes which u know they regret and have learned from but is longer taking part in that ugliness. do we need to push staying a virgin more then the washing away? yes. do we need to make difficult for people to come to christ because we refer to them as broken. NO.

  • Charleigh

    Like the others, I agree that the forgiveness does not erase the consequences.

    It’s clear with debt. Just because you stop spending money you don’t have (on things you don’t need) and have been forgiven for that, you are, still, a debtor.

  • In my opinion no one “loses” their virginity it is either taken or given. I lose my keys or cell phone not my virginity. Just sayin.

    • yep. Lost implies the ability to be found.

    • In either case, Either given or taken, God can restore our heart and rebuild us. I have been teaching through Nehemiah lately. Using this concept of the wall of jerusalem being our lives (along with other things that need rebuilding). I love that they used the rubble to build the wall back up. It doesn’t change the fact that was rubble, but it was reused to build with. God can always take what Satan intended for evil, shame, and destruction and make it into something beautiful.

  • so youre post has impassioned me enough to write my own blog entry on the subject… http://elliechaos.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/second-virginity/ …. enjoy

  • James

    I agree with you.

    I guess we have Rebecca St James to thank for introducing us to the whole born again virgin theory.

    But. If someone is completely heartbroken over the fact that he/she’s had sex I don’t see the point in emphasizing that he or she is definitely absolutely not a virgin. I don’t think she he/she is a virgin again, but if that’s how they deal with I really don’t care that much.

  • Sarah Legaspi

    I understand what everyone is saying but you need to see the other side. What if it wasn’t given away? I believe that God can do anything and that when something is taken away God doesn’t just return to you what was lost He gives you something better. I had every intention of being a virgin when I was married but that choice was taken from me when I was 17. I now believe, through much healing and restoring, that God did restore me and I know that through Isaiah 61. I guess what I am trying to say is don’t judge because sometimes virginity is not given away it is taken by force and I believe God can restore anything.

    • janie

      great point sarah! well said! thank you!

    • I believe He can restore you as well Sarah.
      Sorry for not thinking of this side of the coin.
      I think at the end of the day we know that physical, spiritual, mental, soulful, if something is ruined out of sin, God can heal.
      And someone elses sin ruined that for you.
      And for that… I’m sorry.
      Miss you guys!!!

  • I think a lot of this has to do with the labels we try to put on each other, the labels we either accept or place on ourselves, and the power of judgment those labels carry. In an earlier comment, Steven said receiving Christ did not stop him from being an adulterer, it only made him a forgiven adulterer. This is only true if Steven continues to engage in adultery (in which case has he really come under the lordship of Jesus?).

    In 1 Cor. 6.11, Paul follows a list of sinner types by saying, “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” Notice all of the verbs are in the past tense. We should not underestimate the transformative power involved in coming to Jesus.

    To answer the question directly, I think we need to divest “virgin” of the power we have given it to name some sort of mythic pure state of sexuality. I know that I lusted in my heart long before the first time I engaged in sexual intercourse. We have infused “virgin” with a meaning that suggests a person is automatically pure (and thus not in need of grace) if they have not gone all the way. I know that before I committed a good deal of sexual sin before I engaged in sexual intercourse. Placing so much emphasis on the act of copulation ignores so much sin leading up to it, creates a heightened sense of security, fear, and irreparable damage around a single moment. It also leads to a lot of religious hair splitting. None of which has much to do with following Jesus. When we come to him, Jesus gives us a new name and pronounces his judgment over us. We should be content with the labels he gives and the judgment he renders.

    • Erica

      That is a GREAT perspective, Mike. Thank you for adding that. I couldn’t have said it better!

    • bethany

      so true.

  • Ben

    The church has idolized the idea of being a virgin. This is total bunk.

    There are many virgins who have filthy minds and no control of sexual thinking. At the same time there are plenty of non-virgins who have screwed up in the past and now are committed to living chastely and purely

    I like “chaste” because it’s a HERE and NOW “how am I living” reality.

  • Joshua Longbrake

    I am so curious as to how sexual purity became this massive, massive, massive, massive issue within christianity…

    It’s as if virginity died for our sins.

    • Sexual purity is a commandment… not a suggestion. Yet, sexual purity is the single greatest struggle in the Christian community. So, I’d say it IS a massive, massive, massive, massive issue.

      • Joshua

        Crystal, it’s that kind of data that puts an issue like this on a pedestal. Single greatest struggle? Do you have any kind of source for something like that? That kind of massive generalization ends any sort of discussion or debate. You essentially throw down a spiritual trump card with no data to back it up.

    • I’m just glad longbrake commented on my blog

  • Rodge

    i think the word we’re looking for here is “repentant”.

  • Los, you really opened a can of worms on this – what a great post! We (I) miss you too by the way!!

    I’m going to go Romans 2:25-29 with this one and although it talks about circumcision, I do believe it has some similar implications. We are not only Christians outwardly, but inwardly. If we’ve not had a change of heart we are ultimately being “religious”.

    It is not merely a matter of the physical, it has to do with the heart as well. I have jokingly said I’m a born again virgin, but it is true! I am completely aware that I have the freedom of choice but not of consequence. Purity comes down to a heart thing. If person A is lusting in their heart, fantasizing, etc. what is the difference between them and person B who actually engages in those actions? Nothing, according to what Jesus says in Matthew 5:25-27. In the end, God holds person A and person B accountable in the same way. And yet, it is also his g r a c e and his loving k i n d n e s s, that draws us to repentance, to live purely for Him.

    Just as a side note – for the ladies who had their innocence stolen from them, it breaks my heart. I am encouraged to see many of you who God has healed and continues to heal.

    • BTW, Los, I like this format – clean lines and easy to read, but still cool. truly a marriage of your “zen” design and the one you had previous to this.

      • Thanks. I think I’ll stick with this one for a while…

  • The way that the church approaches purity in general needs to be rethought. Purity definitely needs to be a priority, but it needs to be cultivated from the inside out, i.e. not through “True Love Waits” rallies and purity banquets.

    Show kids how to fall in love with Jesus, and he will make their paths straight…AND, if they fall, love them back into the fold.

    But, you’re right. Embracing our brokenness is essential for an authentic faith.

  • DAvid

    Wow,
    If I was a murderer before I got saved,

    That would not make the victims any less dead.

  • hmmm

    it makes you clean but it doesn’t change what has happened.

    Paul got saved but he still experienced a thorn in his flesh

  • Josh V

    First off, interesting subject. Simple answer to this “black hole” theological debate. God calls us to be Holy not Common/Worldly. Common people practice sex before marriage, steal, lie, have other gods ect.. God’s people should practice being Holy and Holy meaning: set apart).This is why the Law was given to us; so we’d know how to be set apart from the world. If we read the Old Testament (Leviticus) we would know that Holiness is what sets us apart from being common, being Holy/Unique/The Difference is what God desires for us, and if ones virginity is gone before marriage, so what? I’d be more worried about myself or my future spouse practicing Common things of the world rather than practicing Holy things of God.

  • Josh V

    …God commands us to be Holy, He does NOT command us to be virgins; therefore this how we can deal with things like rape; because God is not obsessed with virginity like we are, we get ourselves all virgin crazy. when something like rape happens to someone I feel God’s not pissed at the person for not longer being a virgin, but is concerned with the individuals heart for God and if they will continue to pursue Him and not be derailed by having their virginity taken away, this goes for those who chose to give it away as well.

  • If I drink a bottle of Jack Daniels and then pray for forgiveness, does that make me sober?

    • bethany

      kind of along the same lines and i use the term kind of as losely as that term can get without falling to pieces. but if im a glutten and pray a prayer of salvation right after a massive meal and then shortly there after stop my life of sin. am i still a glutten? no but that meal sitting in my belly during the prayer doesn’t change anything. i think we give a lot of weight to the word virgin. mary was not picked just because she never had sex. there were other virgins at the time. probably a greater % then now. but she was picked to be the mother of jesus because she was different then all the other virgins.

  • bethany

    hahha ok just one more i promise. %^) but if u chose one day carlos to have your tattoos removed (not they r sinful just sayin) would u continue to call yourself tattoed? no. yes it was a physical thing but u no longer bare those marks of that physical act. u may have another scar in its place but still not a tattoo. becoming saved; born again and focusing our heart isn’t impaired by the scars we bare.

  • Amanda

    Wow, I guess people in our culture have a hard time accepting responsibility for their own decisions.
    Once you lose your virginity, it isn’t coming back. God can renew your heart and mind and sould so that you move on in His grace, but that doesn’t change what happened.
    I would love to forget that I went against everything I was ever taught when I had sex before marriage, but that isn’t the way it works. I’ve got emotional repercussions to deal with, no matter how much I’d like to claim “new virgin” status.