96 Comments

  • Rob says:

    aaaaaaannnnddd thats why i’m glad I dont work for them anymore!

  • TIM says:

    Another reason Christians can be stupid.

  • Why do I allow myself to be repeatedly surprised by the depth of stupidity and amount of time wasted by the majority of the American Christian church?

  • Carlos Los says:

    But if you really bellieved what they believe…would you pull it?

  • jan says:

    You are kidding. Of all the issues in the world we should be concerned about, why is this such a big deal? These women are proclaiming the gospel? Let’s rejoice!!! Jesus said “pray to the Lord of the Harvest to send workers”. Why do we get so upset when He sends them?

    This attitude is a sad example to the world and hurtful to the women in our churches. It makes me sad. Sad and wondering if we will ever move forward.

  • Patrick says:

    as the son and nephew of female pastors in the methodist and presbyterian church…

    freaking ridiculous.
    freaking bull****

  • Nick says:

    I believe women can definitely be leaders in the church, but I do not believe they are to be pastors of the church.

    However, I would not pull the magazine. If you sell a magazine reporting a story, it does not mean you support that view, but you are allowing differing viewpoints to be heard and to be shared.

  • Rebecca Moon says:

    interesting in the context of this quotation from the boltz article:

    “Hogue…says he hopes for a day when Christians will see homosexuality as no more a perceived sin than it used to be for women to be ministers or for divorced Christians to hold leadership positions in churches.”

    i guess the question would be: whose perception?

  • Makes me sad. I could pull out scriptures as I’m sure many others could, but the bottom line is this is just bigotry and unthinkable prejudice against ladies.

  • Rebekah says:

    There store, their opinion. It’s still a free market society last I checked and they can pull anything from their shelves for any reason they like.

    Just like (if I owned a bookstore), it would be my right to not sell books that bash women in pastoral roles. Since I’m sure you could find at least a few of those in a LifeWay store.

  • nathan says:

    I agree with Nick. It shouldn’t be pulled just because the theology doesn’t match yours. If that is the case, I’m sure there is a lot more material in their stores that should come off the shelf.

  • Randy says:

    Is it really that big of a deal? They will sell the mag next issue, they made their point hopefully on something they actually believe and not as a marketing/pr decision.

    Do we really need another reason for the American churches to not work together and what should be the common goal.

  • Hmm, I guess they’re selling to a certain audience that holds a particular view. They are a for profit company that has a bottom line to think about. So, if my bread and butter might revolt against my for profit entity, I might do something similar.

    However, I do get frustrated that Christians can’t seem to re-collect that a woman wrote a book of the bible, became a prophetess, a judge, deaconess, founder of a church, basically every possible office except for high priest. And since there is no high priest anymore…I don’t see why this topic is still even debatable.

  • Brad Huebert says:

    Just this: Deborah and Priscilla. These gals are really important, because they’re women and they’re leaders and preachers. So whatever Paul was saying to TImothy about the creation order cannot unequivocally mean that women can’t lead, or we’re also saying God made some serious mistakes and contradicted himself by anointing these two women. They singlehandedly undo the ‘universal’ application of those troubling texts. Minimum, we have to grant that God waives the norm at times for exceptional circumstances or exceptional women. More probably, we have to admit that God knows what he’s doing and it’s not about gender at all. It’s about heart, character, and giftedness. Period.

  • Brad Huebert says:

    Ooops, not finished. My bottom line is, you can’t be entirely honest with yourself and scripture and defend the “absolutely no women leader” position. Which means the store in question is kinda out to lunch.

  • Adam S says:

    I agree that it is not that big of a deal for them to pull it. But it is not that big of a deal that they should have pulled it either. I am sure there are books that would advocate female pastors, or are written by female pastors that are sold in their stores. So my guess is that they are not really strict about things.

  • Andrew says:

    I have no problem with women in the ministry. All throughout the Bible God will use whoever steps up to the plate for his purpose. If men won’t step and be leaders, then God will raise up women, and if they won’t step up then he will use children. Maybe we should look at this as some encouragement to step and do what God has called us to.

  • Jenn says:

    So many Christians believe differently on this issue. Why can’t we just agree to disagree with each other and continue to love like Jesus and not argue.

    I hope you don’t mind but I linked to your blog in mine.

  • Tyler says:

    I see what you are saying Los.

    IF I believed what they believe, then yes, of course I would pull it.

    Agreeing with their stance but not with their decision…I think they are too focused on the letter of the law instead of the intention of the law.

  • jan says:

    Please remember that women are not God’s “second choice”! We are created and used by God for HIS purposes and are just as usable as men. Mutual respect, mutual submission, joyous community, celebration of our God given gifts – these reflect the heart and creativity of God Himself.

  • It’s their store, they can do what they want. Standing up for what they believe is taught in the Bible is commendable. It’s not politically correct, and it doesn’t have to be.

  • “Ya’ll going to hell if you don’t receive Jesus as Lord”! . . . go ahead, pull me off the shelve!!! USA! USA!

  • Ronni says:

    Well this might surprise you. I don’t think women should be the head of a church. Pastors, yes… pastoring people is a spiritual gift and women are well suited for it, but having spiritual headship over a man is different. Women can be official “pastors” over women and kids, and teaching pastors, counseling pastors, etc… but not be the head of a church over men.

    That’s my opinion. As for the homosexuality thing, I”m sick of the church not standing for the truth and watering down things so its more “acceptable”. It’s black or white. You never saw Jesus say “well thats a grey area”. God was never grey on issues. Stop kicking dirt over the line in the sand and call SIN… SIN!!!!!

    Grrrr. I’m tired when the church makes Jesus look like a fool. I’ve made Him look like a fool and I’ve had to get on my face before Him. I’m telling you, my prayers have been that the HOLINESS of God INVADES our churches and we have reverential FEAR of Him once again.

    Maybe then we will stop picking lint off each other and grow backbones!

  • Shaun King says:

    I have met and heard 3 out of the 5 of those women preach. All 5 of them lead amazing churches.

    While I have many reasons why I support and believe in female pastors, I assure you that meeting, hearing, and witnessing these women for yourself will, at the very least, cause you to wonder if you have misunderstood God somehow. Because if God didn’t call those women and they are that doggone awesome – I’m just plain ‘ol stumped!

    Shaun

  • one more reason I prefer to do my “Christian” shopping at cokesbury.

    FREAKIN ridiculous. And we wonder why the “world” thnks we are stupid?

    Really?

  • Ronni says:

    Awww Beth, where would you get your “Christianized” rocks and candle holders? *G*

    LOL.

  • Rob Edwards says:

    Will they also pull the ones with fat pastors on the covers, too?

  • Jenn says:

    After making my above comment I went to bed. As I laid their I realized that maybe my words were not the greatest. I wasn’t accusing anyone commenting here of arguing I meant as Christians in general. What I meant to say is that as Christians we do an awful lot of arguing about issues and it can really give “Christian” a negative look to others. I do understand that sometimes there needs to be discussions about certain issues but all out arguments, I dunno? If all people see and hear all the time is arguing will they ever see the love Jesus has for them.

  • Ronni says:

    NO NO NO Rob… the ones with tattoos and faux hawks… get it right! LOL!

  • or the men who cheat on their wives? Or lust after their secretaries? Or gossip? Or lie? Greedy people? Racists? Ok I have to stop now …

    P.s. Ronni, i saw a really cool “Jesus is my homeboy” shirt the other day, so I think I can still get my fill of kitschy Christian crap without lifeway LOL

  • Bubba says:

    Agree with the “it’s their store so it’s their decision.” I would hope that they would use a little more thought into what it means as a bigger picture.

    While not as big, it is of the same vein as the “stop eating cheeseburgers and all things gay will go away” call to boycott McDonalds. (borrowed from Tim Stevens’ article in Collide Magazine this month).

    Win a fake battle and keep losing the real war.

  • Elissa says:

    Funny, but this is one of those issues that has me scratching my head about the “church” today. I am in a non-denominational church who has women pastors on staff. I, however, am quite confused by it. (incidentally I am a 32 year old woman)I mean my church doesn’t have a problem Bible thumping the issues of homosexuality, premarital sex and lack of faithfulness in tithing as sins but the same Bible that gives us those directives also says that women should not SPEAK in church. It says that we should go home and ask our husbands in private.(nevermind that I am lacking one of those at the moment) This is one of many things I struggle with in terms of my relationship to a church. I am increasingly interested to see what the Bible says to DO and the spirit in which it should be done, and more confused about how the church seems to pick and choose what counts off the “don’t” list.

  • Ronni says:

    Elissa, the reason you scratch your head is because so many pastors don’t know how to properly apply hermeneutic principles to their teaching. Woman CAN speak in churches… the you have to look at the historical context in which every epistle was written. At the time Paul wrote that, men sat on one side, and women on the other, and there were all these new believers having come out of pagan religions… the women would literally yell across the church asking questions, disrupting services. There are extra biblical writings that also confirm this… just like the head coverings… it would be offensive in that culture for a woman not to cover her head. Just as if I went to a muslim country right now and showed my tats and short hair with no head covering. That was disrespectful in that culture.

    BUT, when it comes to the LAW. The things made plainly clear by GOD himself. We do NOT change them to suit ourselves. Got gave us the law so we had something to measure our holiness by. Using that law, we see how we are fully UNABLE to fulfill it, so He sent Christ to fulfill it.

    I think the biggest thing in the church today is bad hermeneutics. We would be on the same page much more if we would stop trying to read everything through our greek type thinking and through God’s type of thinking.

    Just try getting a modern evangelical to read Watchman Nee. It’s amazing when they do. Sometimes it opens their eyes. We read the word like it was written in our culture. It wasn’t. Its a book of PRINCIPLES, and we are to be in relationship with the Holy Spirit and He will explain it to us. Without Him, we turn it into a doctrinal rule book and make a religion out of those rules.

    Defeats the whole point.

  • Ronni says:

    that should read…

    We would be on the same page much more if we would stop trying to read everything through our greek type thinking and INSTEAD READ IT through God’s type of thinking.

  • Hey mate! This is really interesting stuff… thanks for letting us know this happened today..

    I linked to you in my blog (ok, the truth is I stole your idea and totally posted on this same topic…!)

    Hope you’re having a brilliant week.. you rock.

    Vicky

  • Patrick says:

    I am freaking floooooooored. FLOOORED. Amazed. Stunned. Blown Away.

    I cannot believe that people that are progressive enough to use the technology of this century (such as blogs) are still holding on to this archaic interpretation that women should not be pastors or preach. Seriously people.

    I’m sorry, but this, situations just like this, this is what is screwing up christianity for the rest of us. I’m not going to have a scripture fight in the comments section of this blog, but I really think some prior commenters need to spend some time really examining how God wants to reach people.

    I don’t even know how you begin to explain the comments here to a non-christian. I would run for the freaking hills.

    I’m heated about reading this.

    I love that people get to pick and choose the bible as it suits them, because they’re uncomfortable with something, or they really haven’t studied thoroughly the culture it was written to.

    Bubba said it best.

    We need to stop fighting these fake, pointless battles, and start fighting for what matters.

    Are we arguing that the gospel that these women preach is lesser because some people think they shouldn’t be pastoring?

    Is the argument that those who have grown in their faith, been baptized under their pastorship, come to faith in Jesus, been counseled, is all less because they’re women?

    Honestly, what’s the issue? is it just an old-boys club that feels threatened (and I don’t know why…) by women leading?

    I just don’t understand the rationale. And it pisses me off. Something fierce.

    I find it interesting that Elissa is experiencing the “why does my church pick and choose” the issues….

    But seriously. Bubba was so right. Win a fake battle and keep losing the real war.

  • Ronni says:

    Patrick, my pastor said something that I’d said years ago just a few weeks back and it caused a stir!

    “The truth is so powerful it doesn’t matter who speaks it! There is POWER IN TRUTH!”

    I used to say Anton Levey could speak the gospel (even mockingly) and it would have so much power to it someone could get saved by it!

    Women can speak it just as much as women. The difference is authority. Here it looks like Lifeway is saying that preaching or pastoring means exercising authoritative control over men. Granted I don’t know these women or their ministries so I won’t make a call on that. The point is, the mere fact that they are women and that is causing a stir is wrong.

    Now if those women aren’t submitted to male leadership, well honestly that is between them and God. I know I won’t put myself in that position.

    And the real battle, getting people to Christ, is influenced by all these little battles. It’s not a “fake” battle! It’s a real battle that Satan uses as a diversion tactic to get our eyes off the prize!

    We honestly should know better… but then again, for years ministers haven’t preached the whole truth because they didn’t have correct doctrine.

    One drop of black paint in a white bucket makes it impure and all the attention is drawn to that.

    If we as a church would just draw the line, and patrol it and be UNIFIED instead of divided… we would have REAL reformation in the church.

    And that could lead to REAL revival.

    Then again, how badly do we want it?

  • Dj says:

    women in the pulpit?
    if that means leading a congregation, that involves men. very true homieeees

  • LifeWay go to hell where you belong.

    Re-read your fucking bible, this time open your heart to the Spirit God.

    Your leadership is IGNORANT.

    I pray your eyes and eyes are opened by studying the following three scriptures IN THIS ORDER.

    1 Timothy 1:15
    1 Timothy 2:15
    2 Timothy 2:15

    IF YOU DOUBT ME BECAUSE IS AM A LOUD MOUTHED, EASILY MISLED, DAUGHTER OF EVE. CALL MARK BATTERSON AND INTERVIEW HIM PERSONALLY. LET HIM SPEAK AS TO MY SPIRITUALITY. HE’S A PUBLISHED RESPECTED CHRISTIAN AUTHOR. I CARE ABOUT HIS FUCKING OPINION!

    NOT YOURS, YOU HYPOCRITES!

    I PRAY GOD CIRCUMCISES YOUR HEARTS TO HIS TRUTH AND LOVE!

    Dana Marie Johnston
    Date of birth 9/10/1979
    Education level: Associate Degree
    Current Profession: Insurance Agent
    Religious Beliefs: servant of the Holy Spirit of God
    Life Mission: To live the Wild Goose Chase!
    My Mentors: Mark Batterson of National Community Church, Curtis Clark, Jerry Thornton, Bill Davis, Barrett Lammp and Marty Sloan of Thomasville Road Baptist Church, Scott Weatherford, The Fellowship of the Hills in Tallahassee, FL, my father Thomas Johnston, my best friend, Ghiovanny Gamboa.

    ALL MEN. Put them on the cover of this issue so it can “sell” and reinstate these women’s position in Christ’s Kingdom.

    WOULD YOU PULL A MAGAZINE OFF THE SHELF WITH MARY, THE MOTHER OF GOD, RUTH, SARAH, EVE, WHO ELSE? I CAN’T EVEN THINK I AM SO ANGRY!

    Ladies, Beth Moore, Kay Arthur and other’s I can’t remember at the moment. THIS IS OUR FIGHT!

    I am divorced, I’ve been punched by men, told to shut up by men, I’ve been sexually degraded by men.

    Yet, they are “permitted” to preach.

    Men have raped little boys and are allowed to lead the church.

    YOU ARE TERRIBLE FOR DOING THIS!

    There are so many bible studies about the place of women in the church. HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING IN YOUR LIFE? OR JUST LISTENED TO YOUR OWN SELF SERVING EGO?

    If I were a terrorist I’d destroy all of your stores with bombs of terror right now.

    Yet, Vengeance is mine says the Lord. Do not respond in anger!

    Deep breath. Anger is an emotion. Kindness is a decision.

    Kindness, education, TRUTH. These are my pursuits.

  • Tim says:

    Meh. It’s all about Identity. Roles do not have to be the same to be equal. Life is full of gender specific roles, and it isn’t about “wimmins work” “Primary” or “Secondary” any such nonsense, there are some things that are dictated by identity. Being created Male and Female are very specific parts of that Identity, but also just beginnings. Despite the fact that I am a male, I’m not a priest. I’m a Husband and Father, precisely because that is who God created me to be. It’s my vocation as a Christian, my Identity.

    As far as pulling the issue. Whatever. Over reaction or strength of conviction. At least they are hot or cold.

  • Oh, here are three more “MALE” mentors in the faith. Call and interview them about my Spiritual purity!

    John Wall, Cary, North Carolina Roman Catholic Monsigner
    Stephen Wahal, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania my cousin and a Byzantine Catholic Priest, at least he was at one time. We haven’t spoken recently.
    Father Eric Dudley, St. Peters Anglican Church, Tallahassee, FL

    Interview every teacher I ever had in Catholic School or my public high school. Dig for dirt and find it, prove why women don’t deserve a place in ministry. PROVE IT!

  • Okay, need to keep going.

    Sales and marketing 101.

    Put on the cover what sells to make money.

    SEX SELLS!

    Women who are beautiful, articulate, and Christ centered are not a threat the His church.

    Oprah is a threat to His church.

  • Dave Singer says:

    Ok, Dana… you’re getting out of hand. Don’t be disrespectful and offensive. You’re acting just as bad they are right now.

  • Susan P says:

    I tought Lifeway was the progressive arm of the Baptist Church.

  • Susan P says:

    I tought Lifeway was the progressive arm of the Baptist Church.

  • Dave read what I wrote and read the scriptures. Anger is allowed by God and Jesus will say to some, “I have no idea who you are.”

    I apologize if my language offended you. That was not my intent.

    I am deeply disturbed by this issue and it is VERY personal and close to home.

    Do not allow the abbreviation for Full Unadulterated Carnal Knowledge to offend you, please. Hell does exist, Bill Weise in his book, 23 Minutes in Hell proves it and so does my testimony.

    Read my blog before you judge or tell me I am like them.

    I did not take the Lords name in vain, I did not break one of the 10 commandments. I am loving GOD first. I am responding to a BLOG POST, out of EMOTION.

    Anger is an emotion.

    Kindness is a decision.

    I choose to say, please. Lifeway leadership read these scriptures, in this order:

    1 Timothy 1:15
    1 Timothy 2:15
    2 Timothy 2:15

    As you read ask this question. “Who is qualified to work in God’s church?”

    See what the scripture reveals to you, please.

    I appreciate your comments, but you don’t know me and they are unfounded.

    I will not take back what I said, it is THE TRUTH!

    Thank you for engaging in this important discussion! I appreciate your honesty, directness and communication.

    In love, Dana

  • Brian says:

    1 Timothy 2:8-15
    8 In every place of worship, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy.

    9 And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes. 10 For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves attractive by the good things they do.

    11 Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.

    I’m just sayin’

  • Ronni says:

    So Brian, since I had cancer and can’t have children….

    your saying I won’t be saved? So I’m going to hell?

    I mean if you take that out of historical context…

    I guess God putting this mantle on me and telling me to preach and teach…

    …was a mistake.

  • Brian says:

    Maybe someone should explain the historical context of 1 Timothy 2.

    Too often when people disagree with what the Bible teaches they just try to explain it away saying, “That was then, but times are different now and the Bible is archaic.”

    If I’m a homosexual I say, “Those verses don’t apply anymore.”
    If I’m a woman preacher I say, “Those verses are out-dated.”
    If I like to party and get drunk I say, “Well, times are different than they were then.”

    I agree that there are some passages in the Bible that have to be interpreted in light of the historical context. My question is this, how do we pick and choose which passages apply to today and which ones are out-dated?

    If we aren’t careful people can make the Bible say what they want it to say simply by stating, “Well, that doesn’t apply to us anymore.”

  • I LOVE THIS!

    Now we are having real communication.

    I enjoy checking back and seeing what new posts have come up.

    I think the most important thing to remember is this.

    We cannot base our entire lives, our decisions, or our ministries on ONE or TWO verses of scripture taken out of context!

    We need to be in the Word of God constantly, in constant prayer, always seeking the wisdom and direction of His Spirit within us.

    Yes, in biblical times women were to “submit” I use this word cautiously as I was married and tried to submit to an abusive male for too long because I was not being properly coached and I was not actively seeking the counsel of wise Christians.

    Historically, if you look at the Jewish culture at the time the bible was written, women were uneducated homemakers. By uneducated, I mean un-churched in the study of the scriptures. They did not know how to read, (I THINK…) I’m not an expert on this. Let me stop.

    Think about this,

    I sell health insurance for Blue Cross and Blue Shield.
    If I am having a lunch meeting with a new trainee and my customer or prospect, do I want my trainee to present the coverage options, prices and explain the benefits? Or, is that person in a “learning role” (think someone who has less knowledge right now) supposed to be leading my sales presentation?

    Moving on.

    Personally I don’t get too heavy into Theology or absolute answers to questions like, “Can a woman be a Sr. Pastor of a church?”

    I DON’T HAVE TIME TO WASTE ON A STUPID ARGUMENT SUCH AS THIS.

    I have been known to say, “men are better leaders than women, there should never be a women president. Women get PMS and are hormonal.”

    Now feminists, take heart, this was years ago….I wanted to be a stay at home, barefoot in the kitchen wife. God has not give me that opportunity yet.

    I am 29 and working full time. I am good at work, I am a natural leader and communicator. I can a lot of money easily in sales. If I meet a guy that is a better “stay at home dad” or just doesn’t make as much money as I do but we decide not to put our kids in daycare, will you judge us?

    The point is times change, the word of God does not, BUT DON’T INTERPRET THE BIBLE TOO LITERALLY. Get a good pastor to give you their opinion on these issues.

    Don’t feed me one line of scripture for any argument, I’ll find a book full of objections to throw back in your face.

    If you are truly a Spiritual person, deeply rooted in the Word of God, you understand this already.

    If you are feeling strong arguments one way or the other, I pray God guides you to the knowledge you are craving.

    Remember this is a process, life is a journey. We will make mistakes. God doesn’t call us to be perfect.

    Thanks for reading my thoughts! Keep it coming 🙂

    Dana

    Check out my blog for more, just click my name above in Green.

  • Oh Brian, thank you so much for telling us how to dress appropriatly.

    Ladies should we remind him what Proverbs 31 says about a Godly woman?

    Proverbs 31:22

    “She is clothed in fine linens and purple”

    Modest yes. Do we want to debate the meaning of the word modesty next?

    Fine linen? Is that expensive, luxurious, beautiful, flattering, stylish….I don’t know what does it mean to you?

    Purple? In biblical times and color of royalty. A very expensive dye to find.

    So she is in fine linen dyed purple which costs a lot of money????

    By the way. My small group leader has her Ph.D. in textiles, she’s a professor at FSU. Don’t argue with me about linen and purple in biblical times. You will not win!

  • Who’s voting for McCain Palin?

  • Ronni says:

    Gee. I was planning on voting for Randy Bohlender, but with 6 kids now I’m not sure Kelsey wants to be VP….

    *removes tongue from cheek*

  • If you care, the way to fix all of this. The division in the church, the divorce rate, children born out of wedlock etc….

    Corporate American needs to pay men enough to support their families, save for retirement, pay for adequate health care, save for their children’s college education and cloth their wives in fine purple linen, while keeping a roof over their head, food on the table and clothes on his families back.

    Ladies do you complain your husband works too much? Do you have the luxury of staying at home, driving a nice car and living in a home you own in a free country?

    SHUT UP!

    Your husband is providing for you, that is his biblical duty.

    If you want him to work less, tell him you’ll shop at Wal-Mart and drive a used Kia. Tell him your kids can take out student loans, work their way through school or earn a scholarship. Tell him you don’t want the money, you want him.

    That’s the answer. Ladies and gentleman, the media tells us we can have it all. The truth is NO ONE CAN have it all. If you are Angelina Jolie, you have money, fame, beauty and a wonderfully big heart. But you have no private life.

    How sad.

  • McCAIN PALIN ALL THE WAY BABY!!

    But it’s up to God who wins. I trust He knows what He’s doing in this election.

  • Brian says:

    Dana,

    Thanks for you post about the Proverbs 31 woman, but in light of the historical context I don’t believe it applies to us today.

  • Brian says:

    Yes, very sarcastic. I married the Proverbs 31 woman.

    However, too many people just fall back on the “it doesn’t apply to us today” argument when they disagree with the Bible. That is my point.

    My original question still goes unanswered…how do we pick and choose about what passages in the Bible are relevant for today and which ones are irrelevant and don’t apply to us today?

  • Kari Byrd says:

    I think it’s a form of censorship and it’s irresponsible.

  • Adam Hann says:

    Wow, this is some great dialogue here.

    – As far as Scriptures go, I think that everything we read in the Bible should be taken through the lens of what the Authors writing them were meaning. Unfortunately for us, that’s hard because the Bible was written a little less than 2000 years ago and I don’t think anyone here way living then (if you were, I’d like to know how you stay healthy!). Anyways, we should always be digging into finding out more about what was going on in these cities/towns/people’s lives that Paul was writing to when we interpret this. For example, in 1 Timothy 2, Paul’s telling Timothy he won’t let women exercise any kind of authority over women. Could this be that, down the street from some of the churches Paul was connecting with, that there was a temple, where people worshiped a god, and people would hear from this god from women prophets who were basically “high on the spirit of this god” and preaching false prophecy.? (that was a long sentence)

    I have a feeling that Paul didn’t want the Gentiles to get confused on what was God honoring and what wasn’t. So, he made a decision to say, let’s not have women teach, that way it people know we aren’t a part of what’s going on down the road.
    (just an example of digging into what was happening.)

    – As far as lifeway, REALLY? Don’t Christians get enough crappy publicity anyways? Aren’t we supposed to be telling people what we are about instead of what we are against?

    Thanks for that one Lifeway!

  • adam says:

    blah blah blah

    lifeway is hypocritical. i can go there and buy any number of books written by women. is authoring a Christian book not considered teaching or pastoring?

    lame. i won’t be shopping there.. i say that like i’ve been in one of there stores in the last 10 years, haha!

  • deWeb says:

    hey. i serve at a church in marion ohio. we’re a church of the nazarene, and our denomination currently has a woman as one of the six superintendents leading the general church. in my coursework for my minister’s license there were almost as many women in my classes as men. i have some female friends who are excellent pastors.

    but, dana, for the most part, you’re not helping your cause with all your posts. abrasive cursing, setting a double standard in your conversation with brian, your political proselytizing that seems totally out of context in this discussion…

    but i do agree that the lifeway store shouldn’t have pulled the magazine. it seems like they are afraid of talking about it, what some people might say to the cashiers if they see it on the shelf behind them, or whatever…when it is one of the realities of the church of 2008. there are women pastors. some of them are good.

  • Susan says:

    Derrick H. hit the nail on the head when he wrote:

    “I guess they’re selling to a certain audience that holds a particular view. They are a for profit company that has a bottom line to think about. So, if my bread and butter might revolt against my for profit entity, I might do something similar.”

    LifeWay stores are Southern Baptist owned and operated and definitely for profit. The majority of SB members are conservative and believe that women can be leaders in the church, just not pastors.

  • Morgan C. says:

    I personally think it’s great that we have women pastors and I am not saying that because I am a woman. Why would God look down from His wonderful heaven and be saddened by these women who have chosen to reach out to people and spread God’s word. We do not know the conversations these women had with God. If they are living their life for God then I’m sure they would say God called them for this duty.
    We are all called to reach the unbelievers, what’s the difference in standing behind a pulpit to do it or out on the street.
    I want a person teaching me scripture is someone that loves God and loves me. Regardless of their gender.
    I sruggle with scripture all the time. We would all be going to hell because we have all worn clothing of two different fabrics. Yes, that would be in Deuteronomy.
    I think the best thing we should do is let God handle situations like this and if you don’t agree with a woman pastor then just don’t go to that church. Like I said, these women are doing God a service, they are reaching out to people to share God’s word.
    I pray that when I share the gospel with someone else( as my creator has led me to do) that I will not be judged by where I do it, the lack of knowledge I have about the bible or the fact that I am a woman. I pray that God will look to me and be pleased with making His name famous and I pray that I will be judged by my fruits not by my gender.

  • Jan says:

    Lifeway is, I believe, somehow related to the Baptist denomination. I think that they want to be consistent in their doctrinal issues. To many of us this seems INconsistent, but the “powers that be” don’t think so. I say just let it go instead of making a huge stink about it. We DO have way too many things to do on our time on Earth. Arguing this issue, which doesn’t involve salvation, is just a waste of time. I’m just sayin’…

  • Pierre says:

    Los, I’d be interested to hear your views on this subject? Care to share what you believe, or is that up to us? 🙂

  • J says:

    I don’t think churches should have pastors at all. Man or Woman.

    I think there should be teachers, many of them. Man, Woman, Teens, Children even. It all shouldn’t be put in the hands of one man or woman for them to end up being put up on a pedestal.

  • Danny says:

    “Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife..” 1 Timothy 3:2

    You can explain away and debate the issue and context of “one wife”

    Tell me how you explain away “husband.” I think only men can be husbands.

    Certainly there were respectable women leaders in the Bible. I am the pastor of a church with several women leaders and I support all of them. However, I don’t think you can show any scriptural support with women being the ‘senior’ pastor in a church.

    Why do we try to bend God’s word to our standard? Surely God CAN use anyone, that doesn’t mean He will.

  • Simone says:

    I had the supreme privilege of sitting under Dr Pat Francis who pastors Kingdom Covenant Church, a church of over 3,000, in Mississauga, Ontario Canada (a suburb of Toronto). Pastor Pat, as she is known by many, started a small Bible study in her home. It kept growing and growing. It turned into a Friday night ministry and that was as far as she wanted to go. In fact, she met with many of the MALE pastors in town and agreed that was as far as it would go. Just a small meeting of 1,000 people on a Friday night.

    But God had other plans. People were hungry. Young people were attending in droves and so were their families. The ‘congregation’ begged Pastor Pat to start a Sunday morning church. Finally, she did.

    Do you know what she told me one time? Be faithful in the little things. Pastor Pat was faithful and humble and met a need. God blessed this ministry that is meeting the needs of the community like NONE of those male pastored churches were or are meeting.

    Is it a perfect church because there is a woman pastor? No. No church is perfect and there are cracks in every thing that has people at the helm. But I can tell you this woman obeyed God and answered His call. God is being glorified and I can tell you the people who attend that church don’t care if it is a woman or a man in the pulpit because the Word of God is preached so sharply and so accurately.

    Is it 2008 or 1908?? When my grandmother was born, women and blacks were not allowed to vote. They were not allowed to have the basic privileges white men took for granted. Things like voting, equal pay for equal work, the option to be president of a company – or, God forbid, the president or vice president of United States of America. Perhaps when my grandchildren are born, LifeWay will allow a woman on the cover a Christian magazine. Way to go, LifeWay.

  • Jon Lloyd says:

    My grandmother was a pastor for over 30 years. There were hundreds of people who came to know Christ under her leadership. Even more were influenced by her.

    Enough said.

  • dewde says:

    Carlos:

    You like to drop bombs and stir up discussion, which is a good thing, but I wish I knew more what you were thinking on some of these issues.

    peace|dewde

  • Carlos Los says:

    Wow. I go to sleep, wake up, and poof.
    Dana is now fired as a commenter.

  • loswhit says:

    In the midst of all this I’m just learning. I am a Southern Baptist preachers kid.
    My dad is the Executive Director of the California Southern Baptist Convention.
    My ideals and values are as Southern Baptist as they get.
    But in the end…I think Life Way set themselves up on this one.
    There must be hundreds of CD’s and books that they should follow suit with.
    But to attack them for their beliefs is whack.
    They are a for profit business and people can just shop elswhere if they don’t agree.

  • Ben says:

    Let’s all be careful bashing the church. I don’t take well to people highlighting and berating the flaws in my bride, and I can’t see God being a big fan of that, either. Just a thought.

  • Chadwick says:

    Wow – way to get things stirred up Los. Let’s see if I can put my thoughts into short & sweet points.

    1) I, like you, am born & bread Southern Baptist. I ould have a very difficult time attending a church where there was a woman on staff as a pastor. I believe that the bible teaches us that men are the head of the home and the head of the church. If more men would cowboy up & be what God called them to be we would not be having this discussion.
    2) I believe that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God. You can not pick & choose which verses you want to choose to believe – it is an all or none. If you truly believe that any one part is incorrect, then how can you look at God’s word and say that it has any truth. Good reading for reference is Lee Stroble’s “Case for Faith”
    3) Los said it best – Lifeway is “a for profit business and people can just shop elsewhere if they don’t agree.” That is the beauty of a capitalist society.

    Fianl thought – Dana – Girl they make this stuff called MIDOL. I think Sam’s sells economy sized. You might want to invest in some.

  • Morgan C. says:

    I have been pondering this all morning long and I began to think about a wonderful couple that were Paul’s sidekicks, Priscilla and Aquila. Spoke about in Acts 18, Romans 16 3-5, 1 Corinthians 16, again in 2 Timothy 4. This wonderful christian couple were missionaries. Now before I go further I’m sure people who believe a church is a place that has a steeple, lots of beautiful pictures on the windows, a chapel, a pulpit and maybe have some classrooms for bible studies. A sacred place you go to worship God, that’s what first comes to mind when we think od “church.” Looking up some definitions of church, there are many. Most stating that “church” for the most part in a place for religious service. I think any place that God’s presence is present could be called “church.” Here in the south, we have church at movie theaters, grocery stores, old Circuit City buildings even at people’s homes. Now we can have church, worship God, on our internets. No one is going to tell me I have to be in a “church” to worship God. I will in my car if I want.

    So with that being said, back to Priscilla and Aquila. They were a christian couple, man and wife, husband and wife, dude and dudette, boy and girl. Priscilla was a woman. After doing some research and reading in the new testament I discovered this couple actually were church starters. Also in Romans 16:5 and 1 Corinthians 16:19 Paul is “greeting” them in their church that is in their home. Paul is stating that “church” was in their home and that not only Aquila lead but Priscilla as well. This woman had part in leadership in the church.

    I’m simply pointing out here there was a woman with leadership. Many things changed in the new testament. The most important change was Christ removing the veil and giving His life for us.

    We could argue this all day long. I wonder would God take back the salvation of those people that were led to Him by these women. Hmmmm

  • Jeff T. says:

    Brian’s got it right and here’s why. If we are truly committed to the truth of God’s Word, then that will be our only reference and guide. the minute we start forming our opinion based on our own feelings and emotions, we have left the supernatural leadership of God and descended to the carnal judgment of our own flesh. Surely we can all agree that the Bible is TRUTH?

    Dana, Brian’s not telling you how to do anything. He’s quoting Scripture, straight-up. If you’ve got a beef, it’s with God – not Brian.

    The Bible makes it abundantly clear that women ARE allowed to be leaders in the church but not in positions of authority over men. While God’s love is most clearly displayed in mutual submission, He has called men to lead their families. Simple logic says that a man cannot lead his family if he is under his wife’s authority as his pastor! God, and His Word, do not contradict each other.

    If any of us are interested in real truth we must remember that truth is what it is – it’s not what we want it to be. If truth is flexible to one’s desires, then it’s not truth (by definition) and we’ve entered the slippery slope of relativism.

    I have much LOVE and RESPECT for women called to ministry but the Bible doesn’t need “interpretation” on this one. The Word is CRYSTAL CLEAR in the book of Timothy.

    Let’s stick to God’s Word – PERIOD. Any discussion that departs from it will only be fruitless…

  • DeWeb,

    I respectfully disagree with you. Unless you have read every blog I have written since June 2008. I am not listening to your feedback.

    If you read it all, my story, my testimony. Then comment and critique all your want. I will listen with open ears to receive the message God wants me to hear from your mouth.

    Please, I urge us to remove the judgment filled spirit from God’s church in 2008.

    Thank you for sharing and your concern. God is with me, I pray He is also with you, STRONG IN SPIRIT today.

  • Gary Durbin says:

    I’m with you on this, Los. Lifeway and other chains like this appear to open themselves up to churches, from Baptist to Catholic. I’m surprised at this move from a business stand point, and I see mostly women customers when I go to Christian bookstores. Maybe, not the best move for them.

  • alex mclean says:

    I’m flabbergasted… and my eyes hurt from reading all the comments. Good job Los. I think we all made a new friend, very entertaining.

  • J said it best!

    WAY TO SIMPLIFY!

    You get an “A” for the day 🙂

    Dana

    I think it’s cool how God can take my opinions and mega-volume of words and you come back with one three word statement.

    HE IS SO BIG!

  • Danny,

    Consider this.

    The bride is the church.

    The groom, husband, if you will, Christ.

    One bride.

    One groom.

    One head of the church, Jesus.

    It’s fun to take Proverbs 31, A wife of nobel character and replace the word SHE with A BELIEVER or THE CHURCH or EACH OF US.

    I think that is what Paul was trying to convey.

    I’d like to get into Rome and dig through the original documents, wouldn’t it be neat!

  • No, no J.

    THANK YOU for serving our Lord here in a public forum!

    You will be blessed for your obedience to His Spirit whispering in your ear and guiding your fingers on the keys….

    I wonder what that silly “WILD GOOSE” is going to do for you?

  • Carlos,

    You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for sharing more about where you are “coming from” and how your ideas were shaped.

    I’m certain no one here is attacking the Church of Jesus Christ.

    My personal beliefs are such that NO BUSINESS should be FOR PROFIT.

    Oprah, Bill Gates, possibly even the McCain’s have mega-money. I’m not certain that is biblical.

    I pray all leaders blessed with affluence, especially the one is Hollywood and the world of sports, are moved by the words of Andrew Carnegie.

    I wrote a blog about this…I’ll have to find it and report back. He knew how to manage wealth for future generations.

    Just showing some hometown pride, YAY! Pittsburgh, I love my steel city on the three rivers! Our sport franchises are not too shabby either, if you’re into that sort of thing. I prefer the corporations that call it home making it one of the most live-able cities in America today. I miss home, but I sure do hate the snow!

  • Chris Weiss says:

    interesting conversation.

    First, to answer Los’ question: If I believed what they believe, would I pull the magazine? No. I cannot imagine refusing to sell a printed magazine simply because I disagree with the lead article. Sad day.

    Second, on the topic of women in ministry. I go back and forth on this one. On my youth staff, i have many great women who lead small groups and make ministry happen, including my associate youth pastor, who keeps me alive! However, when it comes to the role of Senior Pastor, I struggle a little bit with women filling that post. My reasoning is this: I have not, in my experience, seen it work effectively.
    While I know there are many men who are ineffective Sr. Pastors, I have not seen any effective female Sr. Pastors. Perhaps it is lack of opportunity, perhaps it is a lot of different things. I should probably go pick up a copy of this magazine to read about these women.

    As a guy who struggled to find a place in ministry because of being single, I’m always glad to see non-typical groups of people get opportunities to show that perceptions are wrong. I hope someday I see an effective female sr. pastor, so I can be proven wrong!

  • anne jackson says:

    my ears are ringing from the comments on this post. i seriously feel like i just went to s screamo concert and stood by one of the main speakers.

  • Here Andrew Carnegie on wealth: http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/rbannis1/AIH19th/Carnegie.html

    Because I worked at the cemetery for almost two years I can’t see saving it up to endow at death. Invest in God’s people today!

    Just my personal M.O.

    That’s why you’ll see if, God grants me my prayer, I’m only keeping 10% of the profits. I don’t want to be rich, too much to worry about!

    Have any of you ever read about having enough?

    Enough time with relatives before they die.

    Enough strife that you appreciate the good times without taking them for granted.

    Enough…not more.

    God give me enough. It’s similar in power (as I writer, I focus on the power of words, choosing them carefully, they are my palette, if you will. I want to blend them into an effective piece of work)

    Enough is similar in power to the word if.

    IF, small word, big meaning.

    Think of non-believers, ask them this:

    “If you die and there is only one true God, then what?”

    That should shake them up, if they understand the power of the word “if” and mathematical odds.

    IF = the most faint hint of a possibility.

    For instance, if you are scientifically minded and understand the laws of chaos, it is possible to spit a gold nugget out of your mouth.

    Microscopic molecules can, will, and do change for reasons we humans do not understand.

    If you will accept we do not know everything, then ANYTHING is possible.

    IF and ENOUGH two really BIG POWER words.

  • I CAN’T WAIT TO HEAR FROM ANNE JACKSON! As soon as her hearing comes back. I bought my Third Day tickets at Life Way…..those buggers!

  • Brian says:

    Is anyone else left just scratching their head?

  • Lindsey says:

    Brian, yes. WTF?

  • scott says:

    scratching my head all day…can anyone say hijacked

  • Yea, Christian book stores needed to shoot themselves in the foot..again.

    So retarded.

  • Tim says:

    So..how about them Mets…